视频信息
- 标题: 斯坦福：YC创业课 - 第16集：如何进行用户访谈
- BV号: BV1oWKpzoE1Z
- 时长: 46分25秒（2785秒）
- 作者: 常春藤中英字幕课
- 原始链接: B站视频
视频摘要
本视频是Twitch CEO Emmett Shear在斯坦福创业课程上的客座演讲，分享如何做好用户访谈。Emmett回顾了从Kiko Calendar到Justin.TV再到Twitch的创业历程，阐述自己做用户的局限性，以及在Twitch成功转型过程中用户访谈发挥的关键作用。他强调：选择正确的交谈对象比问什么问题更重要；不仅要与现有用户交谈，更要与非用户、竞争对手用户交流；避免向用户展示产品或询问功能偏好；录制访谈能帮助获得团队支持。Emmett的核心结论是：用户访谈是发现用户真实问题与目标的利器，而不仅仅是收集功能需求；创业公司应持续进行用户研究，因为不同阶段的目标用户会发生变化。
核心要点
自己做用户是逃避：Kiko Calendar时期不做用户调研导致失败，Justin.TV时期虽然成为用户却无法突破，说明这种策略只能打造局限产品。
选择交谈对象至关重要：与主播交流获得的洞察与观众完全不同，确定谁是最重要的人需要认真思考和判断，而非有固定配方。
非用户比现有用户更重要：Twitch通过与竞争对手用户、非 broadcasters交谈，发现广播太难才是真正阻碍市场增长的问题，而非功能缺失。
避免展示产品或询问功能：展示产品会导致无马之车效应，用户只会请求改进而非全新的解决方案；应深入了解用户当前行为和真实问题。
录制访谈具有魔法效果：录制访谈不仅避免记笔记打断对话，还能向公司其他人播放，让对方直观感受用户需求，从而获得团队支持。
现场反馈工具无法告诉你该构建什么：此类工具只能帮你完善已构建产品的缺陷，无法替代早期用户访谈来发现用户真正关心的问题和目标。
不同阶段目标用户会变化：Twitch早期聚焦竞争对手用户获取快速增长，三四年后游戏发行商成为重要交谈对象，说明用户研究需持续进行。
用户反馈应来自深度对话：最好的用户反馈来自愿意 rambling的人，告诉你他们生活中真正的问题和上下文，而非仅回答具体功能问题。
视频全文转录（中英双语）
以下为完整中英双语转录，已加标点。英文在前，中文在后，逐段对照。
由 Groq Whisper 转录 → M2.7 B 方案整文标点 + 分段 → M2.7 段号保留翻译 → 逐段对照。
[段 1]
Good afternoon. Today’s guest speaker is Emmett Shear. Emmett is the CEO of Twitch, which was acquired by Amazon, where he now works. And Emmett is going to do a new format of class today and talk about how to do great user interviews. So this is the talking to users part of starting a startup. It should be really useful. Thank you very much for coming. Thanks, Dan. I should give some context so everyone knows where I’m coming from. I started my first startup with Justin Kan right out of college. We started this company called Kiko Calendar. It didn’t go so well. It went alright. We built it, we sold it, but we sold it on eBay, so that’s not necessarily the end you want for your startup, and it was a good time.
[译文 1]
下午好。今天的客座演讲者是Emmett Shear。Emmett是Twitch的CEO，Twitch被Amazon收购了，他现在在Amazon工作。Emmett今天会以一种新的形式上课，谈谈如何做好的用户访谈。这是创业中与用户交谈的部分。这应该会非常有用。非常感谢你的到来。谢谢，Dan。我应该先给大家一些背景，让大家知道我的来历。我刚大学毕业就和Justin Kan一起创办了我的第一家创业公司。我们创办了一家叫Kiko Calendar的公司。进展不太顺利。还算顺利。我们开发了它，卖掉了它，但是我们在eBay上卖掉了，所以这不是你希望看到的结果，但也是一段不错的经历。
[段 2]
We learned a lot about programming. We didn’t know anything about calendars. Neither of us were users of calendars, nor did we, during the period of time we worked on Kiko, talk to anyone who actually did use a calendar. So that was not optimal. We got the build stuff part of the startup down. We did not get the talk to users part. The second startup we started, we used a very common trick that lets you get away with not talking to users, which was that we were our own consumer. We had this idea for a television show, Justin.TV, a reality show about Justin Kan. We built a whole set of technology and website around the reality show we wanted to run.
[译文 2]
我们在编程方面学到了很多。我们对日历一无所知。我们都不是日历的用户，在开发Kiko期间，我们也没有和任何真正使用日历的人交谈过。所以这不是最理想的。我们掌握了创业中"造东西"的部分。我们没有掌握"和用户交流"的部分。在第二个创业项目中，我们用了一个非常常见的技巧来逃避和用户交流，那就是我们自己做自己的用户。我们有了做电视节目的想法——Justin.TV，一档关于Justin Kan的真人秀节目。我们围绕我们想做的真人秀节目建立了一整套技术和网站。
[段 3]
We were the users. And so we were the user for that product. And that’s actually one way to cheat and get away with not talking to many other users, is if you’re just building something that literally is just for you, you don’t need to talk to anyone else because you know what it is you want and what you need. But that’s actually a really limiting way to start a startup. Most startups are not just built for the person who is using them. And when you do that, every now and then you get really lucky, and you are representative of some huge class of people who all want the exact same thing you do. But very often also that just turns into a side project that doesn’t go anywhere.
[译文 3]
我们就是用户。所以我们就是那个产品的用户。而这实际上是一种作弊方式，让你不用跟很多其他用户交流——如果你做的东西真的只是为你自己，你不需要跟任何人交流，因为你知道自己想要什么、需要什么。但这实际上是一种非常局限的创业方式。大多数创业项目并不是只为使用它们的人而建的。当你这样做时，偶尔你会非常幸运，你代表了某一类庞大的群体，他们都想要和你完全一样的东西。但更多时候，这只会变成一个没有进展的副业项目。
[段 4]
So we kept working on Justin.TV for a while and we actually achieved a good deal of success because it turned out that there were people out there who wanted to do the same thing we did, which was broadcast ourselves live on the internet. But the issue with Justin.TV, the thing that sort of kept us from achieving greatness is we hadn’t figured out yet how to build towards anything beyond that initial TV show. We built a great product, actually. If you wanted to run a live 24-7 reality television show about your life, we had the website for you. We had exactly what you needed. But if we wanted to go do more than that, if we wanted to open it up to a broader spectrum of people, a broader spectrum of use cases, we didn’t have the insight to figure that out because we weren’t that user.
[译文 4]
所以我们继续在Justin.TV上工作了一段时间，实际上我们取得了相当大的成功，因为事实证明，有那么一些人想要做我们做的同样的事情，也就是在互联网上进行实时自我广播。但Justin.TV的问题，也就是让我们无法取得更大成就的原因是，我们还没有弄清楚如何超越最初的电视节目去构建任何东西。我们实际上构建了一个很棒的产品。如果你想要运营一个全天候的直播真人秀来展示你的生活，我们有你需要的网站。但如果我们想做更多的事情，如果我们想向更广泛的人群、更广泛的使用场景开放，我们没有这个洞察力，因为我们不是那个用户。
[段 5]
And so at some point we decided to pivot Justin.TV. We decided we needed to go in a new direction. We thought we’d built a lot of valuable technology, but we hadn’t identified the use case that would let it get really big. And there were two directions that seemed promising. One of them was mobile, and one of them was gaming. And I led the gaming initiative inside of the company. And what we did with gaming that was very, very different from what we’d ever done before was we actually went and talked to users. Because while I loved watching gaming video, I was very aware that neither I nor anyone else in the company knew anything about broadcasting video games.
[译文 5]
于是，在某个时刻，我们决定对Justin.TV进行转型。我们认为自己需要朝着一个新的方向前进。我们觉得自己已经构建了很多有价值的技术，但没有找到能够让它真正做大做强的应用场景。当时有两个方向看起来很有前景。一个是mobile，另一个是gaming。我在公司内部主导了这个gaming项目。我们在做gaming时所做的一些事情，与我们之前所做的完全不同——我们真正地走出去，与用户进行交流。因为虽然我喜欢看gaming视频，但我非常清楚，无论是我还是公司里的其他任何人，对广播视频游戏这件事都一无所知。
[段 6]
And so I was amped about the content. I thought there was a market there. That was sort of the insight that I had that I think wasn’t common at the time, which is how much fun it was to watch video games. Quick show of hands: people know about watching video games on the internet here? Okay, I’m just going to assume that people listening to this also know about it. If you don’t know about watching video games on the internet, you should go read about that because it’s sort of important context for the stuff I’m going to talk about. But the main point is, I thought that was awesome, but I didn’t know anything about the side of it that was really important, which is actually acquiring the content to start broadcasting.
[译文 6]
所以我对内容充满热情。我觉得那里有市场。这大概就是我的洞察，我觉得当时这并不常见，即看电子游戏有多好玩。快速举手示意：这里有人知道在网上看电子游戏吗？好的，我就假设听这个的人也都知道这件事。如果你不了解在网上看电子游戏这件事，你应该去看看，因为这对于我要讲的内容来说是相当重要的背景信息。但重点是，我觉得这很棒，但我对非常重要的一面一无所知，即获取内容以便开始广播。
[段 7]
So we went out and we ran actually a very large number of user interviews. We talked to a lot of people and brought that data back, and that formed the core of all the decision making that was for the next three years of product features on Twitch was sort of the insights we got from that. And we continued to talk to users and, in fact, built an entire part of the company whose job it is basically to talk to our users, which is a whole division that we just didn’t even have at Justin.TV. We had no one at the company whose job it was to talk to our most important users. So that was Twitch.
[译文 7]
所以我们走出去，实际上进行了大量的用户访谈。我们与很多人交谈，把数据带回来，这些数据构成了接下来三年 Twitch 产品功能所有决策的核心，也就是我们从中获得的洞察。我们继续与用户交谈，实际上建立了一整个部门，它的工作基本上就是与我们的用户交谈，这是一个我们在 Justin.TV 时根本没有的整个部门。我们在公司里没有一个人专门负责与我们最重要的用户交谈。所以这就是 Twitch。
[段 8]
And I want to give you guys a little bit of an insight into, with Twitch, what that meant, going to go talk to users. So we determined that the broadcasters were the most important people. And the reason we determined that was when we went and looked into the market, we looked into what determined why people watched a certain stream or went to a certain website. They would just follow the content. You had a piece of content you loved, and the broadcaster would come with you. And that’s actually the one really important point about user interviews, which is that who you talk to is as important as what questions you ask and what you pull away from it.
[译文 8]
我想给你们一点关于Twitch的见解，说明那意味着什么，去与用户交谈。所以我们确定广播员是最重要的人。我们之所以这样确定，是因为当我们深入市场调查时，我们调查是什么决定了人们观看某个直播或访问某个网站。他们只会追随内容。你有一段喜欢的内容，广播员会跟着你走。而这实际上是关于用户访谈的一个非常重要的观点，即你和谁交谈和你问什么问题以及你从中得到什么一样重要。
[段 9]
Because if you go and talk to a set of users, if we’d gone and talked to viewers only, we would have gotten a completely different set of feedback than talking to the broadcasters. And talking to the broadcasters gave us insight into how to build something for them. That turned out to be strategically correct. I wish I could tell you the recipe for figuring out who the target user is for your product and who the target user should be, but there isn’t a recipe. It comes down to think really hard and use your judgment to figure out who you’re really building this for. So what I want to do is something a little bit interactive now, which is I got a bunch of ideas from you guys, actually.
[译文 9]
因为如果你去找一组用户谈，如果我们只去找 viewers 谈，我们得到的反馈会与跟 broadcasters 谈完全不同。而跟 broadcasters 谈让我们洞察了如何为他们构建产品。事实证明这在战略上是正确的。我希望我能告诉你一个配方，来找出你的产品的目标用户是谁，以及目标用户应该是什么人，但并没有这样的配方。它归结为真正深入思考，运用你的判断力来弄清楚你真正在为谁构建这个产品。所以现在我想做一件稍微有点互动的事情，实际上我是从你们这里得到了一些想法的。
[段 10]
So sort of suggested ideas, and I’m going to pick one of them, and I want everyone to sort of sit down and do step one of this process for me right now, which is think about who would you go ask about this. Like, which people? Where would you go to find the people you needed to talk to about this in order to learn about what you should build? And so the idea we’re going to use is, let me see here, of these ideas. So here, it’s a lecture-focused note-taking app. The idea is, I don’t think that the state-of-the-art for note-taking is good enough yet, and I want to make a note-taking app that improves that experience, makes taking notes in class better, or taking notes while listening to a lecture online better.
[译文 10]
好的，下面是翻译结果：
所以提出的各种想法，我会挑选其中一个，我想让大家现在坐下来，帮我完成这个过程的第一步，就是思考你会去问谁来了解这个。比如，哪些人？你会去哪里找到你需要交谈的人，了解你应该做什么产品？所以我们要用的想法是，让我看看这些想法中的哪一个。这个想法是，一个专注于课堂的笔记应用。这个想法是，我觉得目前最先进的笔记应用还不够好，我想做一个能改善这种体验的笔记应用，让课堂记笔记变得更好，或者在网上听讲座时记笔记变得更好。
[段 11]
So maybe it has collaboration features. Maybe it helps you focus better somehow. It has multimedia enhancements. I don’t know, right? All sorts of possible features. But that’s the idea. So take 120 seconds right now and think about not what you would ask or what the right features for this app is, but who would you talk to? Who’s going to give you that feedback that’s going to tell you whether this is good or not? I actually mean it right now. Take your laptop out. Write some stuff down. Think about, like, it’s good enough to think of that in your head, but actually, if you actually just write it down and just come up with the five people you’d talk to, the five types of people you’d talk to, and who you think the most important one was, actually do it.
[译文 11]
所以也许它有协作功能。也许它以某种方式帮助你更好地集中注意力。它有多媒体增强功能。我不知道，对吧？各种可能的功能。但这就是想法。所以现在花120秒想想，不是你会问什么或者这个应用有什么正确功能，而是你会和谁交谈？谁会给你那个会告诉你这好不好的反馈？我现在是认真的。现在拿出你的笔记本电脑。写一些东西下来。想想看，在脑子里想够好了，但事实上，如果你真的写下来，然后想出你会交谈的五个人，你会交谈的五种类型的人，以及你认为最重要的是谁，真的去做。
[段 12]
Because there’s nothing like actually running through a practice of something and trying to do it to actually get it into your head the right way to do it. I’m gratified to hear clicking on keyboards now. If you’re following along at home, Pause, actually do it, think about who would you talk to? Because that is the first question for almost any startup that you need to answer is who is my user and where am I going to find them? All right. That’s way shorter than you’d normally use to think about this problem. It’s actually a really tricky problem, and figuring out where to source the people is pretty hard. But we’re going to move along anyways in this highly abbreviated version of learning how to build a product and run a user interview.
[译文 12]
因为没有什么比实际练习做某件事并尝试去做它更能让你真正把它以正确的方式记在脑子里了。听到键盘的敲击声我很欣慰。如果你在家跟着一起做的话，暂停一下，实际去做，想想你会和谁交谈？因为这是几乎所有创业公司都需要回答的第一个问题——谁是我的用户？我将在哪里找到他们？好的。这比你们通常用来思考这个问题的时间要短得多得多。这实际上是一个相当棘手的问题，弄清楚从哪里获取这些人是非常困难的。但我们还是要继续推进这个高度精简版的学习——如何构建产品并运行用户访谈。
[段 13]
So can I get one volunteer from the audience to come up and tell us who you would talk to, and we’ll talk about it. You guys are all pre-selected. Here you go. I don’t know how to turn this thing on. Here we go. So who do you talk to? I would definitely talk to college students first, obviously, because we sit in a lot of lectures. And specifically, I would want to talk to college students studying different subjects to see if maybe your English major, if that makes a difference versus your studying math or computer science in terms of how you want to take notes in different lectures. So you’re going to talk to a bunch of college students.
[译文 13]
所以我能从观众中找一位志愿者上来告诉我们你会和谁交谈，然后我们来讨论这个话题。你们都是预先选好的。给你。我不知道怎么打开这个东西。好，我们开始。那么你会和谁交谈？我肯定会先和大学生交谈，显然，因为我们经常坐在课堂上。具体来说，我想和不同专业的大学生交谈，看看你的英语专业是否会有所不同，相比你学习数学或计算机科学，在不同的讲座中你想如何做笔记。所以你会和一群大学生交谈。
[段 14]
Would you pick any particular subset of college students? It sounds like you don’t want to talk to all college students or a broader range. I want to talk to college students and break down the divisions by people who study different areas maybe, and then also maybe it would make sense for people who have different study techniques because some people take a lot of notes, some people don’t take that many notes, but still jot stuff down. Right. So that’s a really good start. That is actually obviously a group of users you want to go talk to, especially if you’re targeting something at college students as the consumer. And if you’re talking to college students as a consumer, you’re going to get a lot out of students about what their current note-taking habits are and what they would be excited about.
[译文 14]
你会选择特定的college students子集吗？听起来你不想和所有college students交谈，也不想涉及更广泛的群体。我想和college students交流，也许可以按学习不同专业的人群来划分，然后再按不同的学习技巧划分，因为有些人记很多笔记，有些人不记那么多笔记，但还是会随手记下一些东西。对。这是一个很好的开始。这显然是你想要去访谈的一组用户，特别是如果你把目标对准college students作为消费者的话。如果你把college students作为消费者来交谈，你会从学生那里了解到很多关于他们目前记笔记习惯的信息，以及他们对什么会感到兴奋。
[段 15]
One of the problems with selling things to college students is that college students don’t actually spend very much money. It’s really hard to get you guys to open your wallets, especially if you want to get you guys to open your wallets, especially if you want them to pay for a school-related thing. I mean, people don’t even want to buy textbooks, right? I think you probably all use Chegg or borrow it from your friend or whatever. And so one of the things that I think you’d be missing if you go after just the students, right, is you want to figure out who is the most important person to this app. And if you actually had a note-taking app, my guess is for colleges, the people most likely to actually buy a note-taking app that you guys would use would be college IT.
[译文 15]
向大学生销售产品的问题之一是，大学生实际上并不会花很多钱。真的很难让你们打开钱包，尤其是当你想让他们为学校相关的东西付钱时。我是说，人们甚至不想买教科书，对吧？我想你们可能都在用 Chegg，或者从朋友那里借阅之类的。所以我认为如果只针对学生，你可能会错过的一件事是，你想弄清楚谁对这个应用程序最重要。如果你真的有一款笔记应用，我猜测对于大学来说，最有可能真正购买你们会使用的笔记应用的人是 college IT。
[段 16]
Presumably, for the most part, if you want to sell software to students, the people who have to get bought into that is usually the school administrators. So that would be one approach. Presumably you go talk to the college students and you find out they don’t actually buy any note-taking software right now at all. I mean, likely. It’s possible they do, in which case I’m completely wrong. This is why you actually have to go talk to the users. But you then have to try to maybe try other groups. So I would talk to college, I would talk to IT administrators as well. I think that’s another area that’s really promising. You might talk to parents. Who spends money on their kid’s education and is willing to pull their wallet out?
[译文 16]
大概来说，在大多数情况下，如果你想把软件卖给学生，那些必须被说服的人通常是学校管理人员。所以这是一种方法。大概你会去找大学生交谈，然后发现他们目前实际上根本不买任何记笔记软件。我的意思是，大概是这样。他们有可能买，在这种情况下我就完全错了。这正是为什么你必须去和用户交谈。但之后你必须尝试其他群体。所以我会和大学生交谈，我也会和IT管理员交谈。我认为这是另一个非常有前景的领域。你可以和家长谈谈。谁愿意在孩子的教育上花钱，并且愿意掏腰包？
[段 17]
Parents of kids. Parents of kids who are freshmen who are going up to college for the first time. You need this app to make your kid productive so that they don’t fail out of college. And there’s actually a lot of groups that are potential, that aren’t necessarily the obvious user, but who are critical, critical to your app’s success, potentially. And when you’re at the very beginning of a startup like this, when you’re like, you have this idea that you think is awesome, you want to have that broadest group you possibly can. You don’t just want to talk to one type of person and learn that. You want to get familiar with the space. You want to get familiar with the various kinds of people who could be contributing.
[译文 17]
孩子的父母。家里有刚升入大学读大一新生孩子的父母。你需要这个app来让你的孩子保持高效学习，这样他们就不会被大学劝退。实际上有很多潜在的用户群体，他们不一定是显而易见的目标用户，但对你的app的成功可能至关重要。当你处于这样的创业初期，当你有一个你认为很棒的想法时，你希望能覆盖尽可能广泛的群体。你不要只和一类人交流然后学到东西就算了。你想熟悉这个领域。你想熟悉各种可能参与其中的人。
[段 18]
All right. So let’s have someone come up and we’re going to pretend And we’re going to run this user interview. So we’re going to talk to a college student and try to find out what we should build, what we should get into this note-taking app. So another volunteer, please, for running an interview. Yes. All right. So hello. Hi. I’m Stephanie. Hi, Stephanie. Nice to meet you. Welcome. Thank you for agreeing to do this user interview with us. So I wanted to hear from you about, you know, what are your note-taking habits? Like, how do you take notes today? Sure. So I take notes in a variety of ways. I like to, now because of speed and efficiency, and just to come back to it later, it’s easy for me to just take notes on my laptop.
[译文 18]
好的。让我们请一个人上来，我们要假装一下，我们要进行这个用户访谈。我们要和一个大学生聊聊，看看我们应该构建什么，我们应该在这个笔记应用里加入什么。所以请再来一位志愿者进行访谈。是的。好的。你好。你好。我是 Stephanie。你好，Stephanie。很高兴见到你。欢迎。谢谢你同意和我们进行这个用户访谈。我想听听你的意见，你知道，你记笔记的习惯是什么？比如，你今天是怎么记笔记的？当然可以。所以我记笔记的方式多种多样。我喜欢，现在因为速度和效率，而且之后还能回顾，对我来说在笔记本电脑上记笔记最方便。
[段 19]
And so a lot of those notes will be primarily text-based. But in certain classes, so, for example, if I’m taking a history class, most of it will be in text. But if I’m taking a physics class, for example, they’re going to be more complex diagrams, different angles that I have to draw. And so that’s a little harder for me to both get the… What software do you use for this stuff today? I just… What software do you use for this stuff today? I just do pen and paper for that. You do pen and paper. So you do a combination. You take notes with pen and paper. You take notes with your computer sometimes. Yeah. And when you take notes with, when you take all these notes, do you actually review them?
[译文 19]
所以很多这些笔记主要是基于文本的。但在某些课程中，比如，如果我上历史课，大部分内容会是文本。但如果我上物理课，比如，会有更复杂的图表，我必须画的不同角度。所以这对我来说…更难一些…你今天用什么软件做这些东西？我只是…你今天用什么软件做这些东西？我只是用笔和纸。你用笔和纸。所以你两者结合使用。你用笔和纸记笔记。有时你也用电脑记笔记。是的。当你记笔记时，当你记下所有这些笔记时，你真的会复习它们吗？
[段 20]
Be honest. Do you actually go back and ever actually look at these notes? The pen and paper, not so much. But yes to the software-based because it’s more easy to access, and it’s easier for me to share and collaborate and maybe even merge notes with classmates and friends. So what do you use to take notes today on your computer? Google Docs and Evernote. Google Docs and Evernote. And tell me more about why two things at the same time. So Evernote is easy if I’m trying to just collect it for myself, I think. And yes, you can share, but I think Google Docs for me is easier to share. And it depends also if a friend has already created a folder, for example, on Google Docs, and I just have to add to that folder if it’s a group project, for example, versus if it’s for my personal use, I tend to go more towards that.
[译文 20]
说实话。你真的会回头去看这些笔记吗？笔和纸的话就不太会了。但基于软件的会，因为更容易访问，我也更容易分享和协作，甚至可以和同学朋友合并笔记。那你今天在电脑上用什么做笔记？Google Docs 和 Evernote。Google Docs 和 Evernote。告诉我更多关于为什么同时用两个软件。我觉得如果只是自己收集的话，Evernote很方便。是的，可以分享，但我觉得Google Docs对我来说更容易分享。这也取决于，比如如果朋友已经在Google Docs上创建了一个文件夹，我只是需要添加到那个文件夹，如果是小组项目的话，而如果是个人使用，我更倾向于用那个。
[段 21]
So it sounds like you do a lot of note-taking collaboration. Yeah, I wish it was integrated. Tell me more about that. Do you wind up taking most of the value of the notes out of notes other people take, or is it mostly your own notes you review at the end of the semester? How does that work? It’s mostly mine because I’m pretty picky about the way I like things organized. Like design-wise or formatting-wise, even color I’m really particular with, and the font that we use, and that really affects the way I study. So I tend to like to personalize it even after I merge. So you pull in notes from other people, but then you merge them into the main…
[译文 21]
听起来你经常和别人协作记笔记。
是啊，我希望它能整合在一起。
给我详细说说吧。
你最终是从别人记的笔记中获取大部分价值，还是主要复习自己的笔记到学期末？
这是怎么运作的？
大部分是我的，因为我对自己喜欢的东西的组织方式非常挑剔。
比如设计方面或格式方面，甚至颜色我都非常讲究，还有我们使用的字体，这真的会影响我学习的方式。
所以即使在合并之后，我也倾向于个性化处理。
所以你把别人的笔记拉进来，然后合并到主笔记里…
[段 22]
What works for me. Right. Awesome. Awesome. And if you have Evernote notes and you have Google Docs notes and you have pen and paper notes, once the semester’s over, do you ever go back to any of that stuff? Or is it like a quarter? You guys are in quarters here, right? Once the quarter’s over, do you ever go back to any of that stuff? For classes, not so much. But if it’s notes that I’ve taken for talks like these, for example, or if it’s interview prep that I’m doing, I tend to go back because it’s things that I like to keep fresh in my mind and to help me prep for future things. That’s interesting.
[译文 22]
适合我的方法。好的。太棒了。太棒了。如果你有 Evernote 笔记、Google Docs 笔记和手写笔记，一旦学期结束，你会回头去看这些东西吗？还是说就像一个季度？你们这里是用季度制，对吧？一旦季度结束，你会回头去看这些东西吗？对于课堂笔记，不太会。但如果是我为像这样的演讲做的笔记，或者是我在准备的面试笔记，我倾向于回头去看，因为这些是我喜欢让自己保持记忆犹新的东西，也能帮助我为未来的事情做准备。这很有趣。
[段 23]
Tell me more about that. You take notes not just in class? Yeah. So I take notes to also just summarize main points. So if it’s like inspirational quotes, for example, from talks that I go to like these, and then like maybe I’m going to an event where I’m actually going to meet someone, And it helps to actually think about and remember and recall what was shared at the time that I attended the talk or something. Awesome. All right. Well, normally I’d actually dig into a lot more detail. There’s a huge amount of like open questions that are still in my mind after hearing that stuff, questions about which people do you collaborate with, questions about whether or not you, like what the volume of notes are and how long of note-taking stuff?
[译文 23]
告诉我更多关于那个的事。你不只是在课堂上记笔记吗？是的。所以我记笔记也是为了总结要点。所以比如如果是励志语录，来自我参加的这些演讲，然后可能我要去一个活动，在那里我真的要去见某个人，这样能帮助我真正思考、记住和回忆起我当时参加演讲或什么的分享内容。太棒了。好吧。嗯，通常我实际上会深入了解更多细节。听了那些之后，我脑子里还有很多悬而未决的问题，比如你和谁合作的问题，你是否…的问题，比如笔记量是多少以及记笔记的时间有多长之类的问题？
[段 24]
And just sort of digging into what the current behavior is. But in the interest of time and not keeping everyone here hearing about the intricacies of one person’s note-taking habits forever, we’re going to move on. But thank you very much, Stephanie. I appreciate that. So that kind of stuff, you notice we’re not talking about the actual content of the app at all. I’m not really interested in features. I don’t really want to know about the specific feature set in Google Docs or Evernote. I might start digging in a little bit more into which features actually get used. If she’s actively collaborating, how does that work? I heard some interesting things about, oh, we use folders.
[译文 24]
只是稍微探究一下当前的行为模式。但为了节省时间，也不想让大家一直听一个人笔记习惯的复杂细节，我们要继续往下进行了。非常感谢你，Stephanie。我很感激。所以这类事情，你们注意到我们根本没有在讨论这个应用的实际内容。我对功能特性并不是很感兴趣。我真的不想了解 Google Docs 或 Evernote 的具体功能集。我可能会开始稍微深入挖掘一下哪些功能实际上被使用了。如果她是在积极协作的话，那是如何运作的？我听到了一些有趣的事情，哦，我们使用文件夹。
[段 25]
That’s interesting to me. But the main thing you’re trying to do when you’re running these first set of interviews is not necessarily get questions about user flows and optimizing that or questions about the specifics of any of that stuff kind of can be distracting. Because users think they know what they want, but you get the horseless carriage effect, where you’re getting asked for a faster horse instead of trying to design the actual real solutions of the problem, if you start asking people about features. So you want to stay as far away from features as possible. Because the things they tell you wind up almost feeling overwhelmingly real. When you have a real user asking you for a feature, it’s very hard to say no to them.
[译文 25]
这对我来说很有意思。但当你做第一批访谈时，你要做的最重要的事不一定是问关于用户流程和优化的问题，或者问那些具体细节的问题，这类东西可能会分散注意力。因为用户以为自己知道想要什么，但你会遇到"无马马车效应"——当你开始问人们关于功能的问题时，你得到的回答是要一匹更快的马，而不是去设计真正解决问题的方案。所以你要尽可能远离功能问题。因为他们告诉你的东西最终会让你感觉真实得难以承受。当你有一个真实用户在向你索要某个功能时，你很难对他们说不。
[段 26]
Because here’s a real person who really has this problem, and they’re saying build me this feature. But as you start to talk to lots of people and really get a sense for what their problems are, you figure out if this is actually a promising area or not. And based on what I heard there, it’s like starting from that user interview, I’m not necessarily positive there is a problem. Or at least there’s a big enough problem that it’s worth building a whole new product for. Because I didn’t hear a lot of things where there was a big blocker, where there’s something really wrong with the way it was working. And unless I had some big idea, I would take that as maybe a negative sign.
[译文 26]
因为这确实是一个真实的人，确实存在这样的问题，他们说给我做这个功能。但当你开始和很多人交谈，真正了解他们的问题是什么时，你会判断这是否真的是一个有前景的方向。根据我在那里听到的，我并不确定这里真的存在一个问题。或者至少没有一个足够大的问题值得为之构建一个全新的产品。因为我没有听到太多存在重大障碍的情况，没有听到工作方式上有什么真正的问题。除非我有了一些重大想法，否则我会把这些视为可能的负面信号。
[段 27]
But it doesn’t necessarily mean that you can’t move forward and keep talking to more people. Because just because you talk to the first person and you don’t get anything out of it doesn’t mean there’s not going to be a ton more people who actually have a problem. Once you talk to about six, seven, eight people, you’re usually about done. It’s unlikely you’re going to discover a bunch of new information there, which is why it’s important to talk to different extremes of people. Go find people who are at different points, because if you talk to six or seven Stanford college students, you’re going to get a very different response than if you talk to six or seven high school students or six or seven parents.
[译文 27]
但这并不意味着你不能继续前进，去和更多的人交谈。因为仅仅因为你和第一个人交谈后没有从中得到什么，并不意味着不会有大量真正存在问题的人。当你大约和六七个、八九个人交谈后，通常就差不多了。你不太可能在那里发现一堆新信息，这就是为什么与不同极端的人交谈很重要的原因。去寻找处于不同阶段的人，因为如果你和六七个斯坦福大学生交谈，你会得到与和六七个高中生或六七个家长交谈截然不同的回应。
[段 28]
All right, once again, let me look at the… So based on that, though, right, I think the, I think it’s possible you could come up with a set of ideas, right? You have this information about how someone takes notes, you’ve come up with potentially when you came up with this idea, you had some ideas, when you heard this idea, you had some ideas as to like how you could build something cool. And so if you’re going to build just one feature on top of Google Docs, what would that feature be, right? And that’s for a new product like this, it might be a good way to get started thinking about where to go, which is okay, so they’re extensively using this thing right now, how can we make that experience just one quantum better?
[译文 28]
好的，让我再看一下…所以基于这个，嗯，我认为你可能会想出一系列想法，对吧？你有关于某人如何做笔记的信息，你可能在想出这个想法时有了一些想法，当你听到这个想法时，你有了一些关于如何构建一些很酷的东西的想法。所以如果你要在Google Docs上只构建一个功能，那个功能会是什么，对吧？对于这样的新产品，这可能是开始思考方向的好方法，好吧，所以他们现在正在广泛使用这个东西，我们如何能让这个体验提升一个层次？
[段 29]
Something that would be really exciting to this person to be one step ahead. And so, let me take two minutes right now and think about what that feature might be. Actually like try to come up with what you might do based on what you heard from Stephanie that could convince her to switch away from her current collaborative multi-person all-working-together workflow on Google Docs to your new thing that has all the features of Google Docs plus this one special thing that’s going to make it more useful and convince them to stop using the thing they’re already using. Thank you. Awesome. All right. So I’m going to invite our third guest, if you have something up. I don’t want to put you on the spot if you feel like you’re not sure.
[译文 29]
这对这个来说会是一个非常令人兴奋的东西，让他们领先一步。所以让我现在花两分钟时间思考一下这个功能可能是什么。实际上，试着根据你从 Stephanie 那里听到的内容想出你可能会做什么，这可以说服她从她目前在 Google Docs 上的多人协作工作流程切换到你的新东西——它有 Google Docs 的所有功能加上这一个是特殊的，会让它更有用，说服他们停止使用他们已经在用的东西。谢谢。太棒了。好吧。那么我要邀请我们的第三位嘉宾，如果你准备好了的话。如果你觉得不确定，我不想让你感到为难。
[段 30]
But, yeah? So what I, is it on? Yes. Okay. What I thought about was the reason she uses Evernote is because of sticky note type notes, like more thoughts and details. So I feel like Google Docs has documents and not smaller notes. So I feel like a feature that would be super, like a mobile version of Drive that isn’t that clunky and doesn’t make you make real documents could be really useful. Awesome. So that’s a good insight. That’s exactly, that’s one of the things you get out of that user interview. And now you have this idea. You’ve gotten this user feedback. You’ve got this idea. What if we had a Google Docs that had the collaborative aspects and the group aspects of that, but where you could pull in more little one-off notes and it was designed more around note taking.
[译文 30]
但是，嘿？所以我，这是开着吗？是的。好的。我想到的是她使用Evernote的原因是因为像便利贴一样的笔记，更多是想法和细节。所以我觉得Google Docs有文档而没有更小的笔记。所以我觉得一个功能会很棒，比如一个移动版的Drive，不会那么笨重，也不会让你必须创建真正的文档，这可能会非常有用。太棒了。所以这是一个很好的洞察。没错，这正是你从那个用户访谈中获得的东西之一。现在你有了这个想法。你得到了这个用户反馈。你有了这个想法。如果我们有一个Google Docs，它有协作方面和团队协作方面，但你可以引入更多零散的临时笔记，而且它更多地围绕笔记功能设计，那会怎么样呢？
[段 31]
And so the question is now, once you have this idea, which I think it’s actually a reasonably reasonable approach, is this enough? Is this something people would actually switch just to have? And there’s two ways to validate that. One is if you’re quick at programming, you can literally just go build it and throw it out in the world and see what happens. And that’s great. And when that works, that’s an excellent way to approach it. But a lot of the time, that one little thing that’s just a little bit better might take you three months to actually build something that’s worthy of actually using. And so you actually want to go out and validate that idea further before you go ahead and start building it.
[译文 31]
所以问题是，现在你有了这个想法——我认为这实际上是一个相当合理的方法——这够了吗？这真的是人们会仅仅为了拥有而切换的东西吗？验证这一点有两种方法。一种是如果你编程很快，你真的可以直接去构建它，然后把它发布出去，看看会发生什么。这很棒。当这种方法可行时，这是一个很好的方法。但很多时候，那个只是一点点更好的东西，可能需要你三个月才能构建出真正值得使用的东西。所以你实际上想在开始构建之前进一步验证这个想法。
[段 32]
And so you might take that idea and you might go back out. And you can sit down with diagrams. You can draw what it looks like. Draw the workflow. And go bring that in front of people. But the one thing you really don’t want to do is ask them. This is just sort of a trap I want to warn you against doing. If you come up with a feature idea and go out and ask people, I got this great idea for a feature. Are you excited about it? Because the feedback you get from users if you tell them about a feature and ask them, is this feature good? It’s often, oh, yeah, that’s great. That sounds like such a good idea.
[译文 32]
所以你可能会带着那个想法再走出去。你可以坐下来画图表。你可以画出它看起来的样子。画出工作流程。然后把它带到人们面前。但有一件事你真的不想做，那就是问他们。这只是我想警告你的一个陷阱。如果你有一个功能想法，然后走出去问人们，我有一个很棒的功能想法。你对此感到兴奋吗？因为你从用户那里得到的反馈，如果你告诉他们一个功能并问他们，这个功能好吗？通常会是，哦，是的，那太棒了。这听起来是个很好的主意。
[段 33]
But when you actually take that in front of people and you actually build it, you then find out that, well, they thought it was such a clever idea. No one actually cares to switch to get it. And so the one question you can’t ask is, is this feature actually good or not? Yes, Sam? What is the minimum that you can do in your experience to actually build in on that question? And asking, you know, between asking and actually building the whole thing. Yeah, so Sam’s asking what’s the minimum you can actually get away with to validate, given that you can’t actually just go and ask them, is this good or not? And it’s highly dependent, the answer to that is highly dependent on the particular feature.
[译文 33]
但当你真正把它展示在人们面前并实际构建出来时，你会发现，嗯，他们觉得这真是个聪明的想法，但实际上没有人愿意为了它而切换过来。所以你不能问的一个问题是——这个功能到底好不好？是的，Sam？以你的经验来看，为了验证这个问题，你能做的最小可行方案是什么？在直接询问和实际构建完整产品之间，有没有其他的办法？是的，Sam问的就是——既然你不能直接去问他们这个功能好不好，你能以多小的代价来验证这一点？而且这高度依赖于具体情况，这个答案高度取决于具体的功能。
[段 34]
But usually the best thing you can do is really just hack something together. If your idea is to build something on top of Google Docs, don’t for your V1 go rebuild an awesome Google Documents but for note taking application. Find a way to write a browser extension that stuffs just that little bit of incremental feature in and see if it’s actually useful for people. Go like, Go, go, find a way to cheat, is what it comes down to. Because if you can’t actually put it in front of people, um, it’s really, really hard to, uh, it’s really, really hard to find that out. For bigger things, we’re actually trying to get people to spend money.
[译文 34]
但通常你能做的最好的事情就是真的拼凑出一个东西来。如果你的想法是在 Google Docs 基础上构建东西，那么在 V1 版本时，不要去重建一个很棒的 Google Documents 却只是为了做笔记应用。想办法写一个浏览器扩展，把那一丁点增量功能塞进去，然后看看它对人们是否真的有用。去，就是，去想办法走捷径，说到底就是这样。因为如果你不能真正把它放到人们面前，嗯，就真的，真的很难，嗯，就真的，真的很难发现这一点。对于更大的事情，我们实际上是在试图让人们花钱。
[段 35]
It actually gets a lot easier. So if you’re selling it, it’s great, actually. Sales is this cure-all for this problem. Get people to give you their credit card, and I guarantee you they’re actually interested in the future. It’s one of the most validating things you can do for a product is go out there and actually get them to commit to pay you up front. And the problem is, when you’re working on a student note-taking app, that’s going to be relatively hard, because you probably, unless your idea is that you’re actually going to sell it, it’s probably something where you’re thinking at least the trial version is free and you’re not necessarily going to learn that much by trying to charge people money.
[译文 35]
实际上会变得容易很多。所以如果你在卖它，实际上这很棒。销售是解决这个问题的万能药。让人们给你他们的信用卡，我保证他们实际上对产品是有兴趣的。对产品来说，你能做的最能验证产品价值的事情之一就是走出去，让用户真正承诺预先付费。而问题在于，当你做一个 student note-taking app 时，这会相对困难，因为除非你的想法是你真的要卖它，否则你可能会认为至少试用版是免费的，而你通过尝试向人们收费不一定能学到那么多。
[段 36]
But if you go out there and you can get people to say, hey, I’m going to give you money, the money test is amazing. It really does clarify whether or not they’re really excited about it or not. Because if you’re not $5 excited about it, you’re probably not very excited about it. So the last thing I wanted to do is actually work through with you guys what happened at Twitch. So I brought some slides of feedback that I’d like to get put up. That’s my only slides for the thing. What it is, it’s representative excerpts of Twitch feedback. I had a whole 26-page document full of all the feedback, and then I realized that reading that was going to be a little bit tedious, and there was no way I’d make it through it in a lecture.
[译文 36]
但如果你走出去，能够让人们说，嘿，我愿意给你钱，那这个金钱测试就很厉害。它确实能弄清楚他们是否真的对此感到兴奋。因为如果连5美元的热情都没有，那你大概就不是真的很兴奋。所以我想做的最后一件事实际上是和大家一起回顾一下Twitch上发生的事情。所以我带来了一些反馈的幻灯片，我想把它们展示出来。这是我唯一的幻灯片。它其实是Twitch反馈的一些代表性摘录。我有一份完整的26页文档，包含了所有反馈，但后来我意识到读那个会有点乏味，而且在讲座中我根本不可能把它全部讲完。
[段 37]
So pretend that this stuff is all representative of lots of people said this kind of thing out to us when we asked them questions, and I’ve already pre-condensed it for you. Okay, to us when we ask them questions, and I’ve already pre-condensed it for you into the real feedback you got. So when we were working on Twitch to go launch it, we talked to a bunch of existing Justin TV broadcasters and asked them about their experience broadcasting, what they liked about broadcasting, why they broadcasted, what they broadcasted, what else was going on in their life. And the interesting thing is when you talk to users of your product who are detailed users of your product, they come back to you with actually very detailed things about features, because they actually get mired in the feature.
[译文 37]
所以假设这些东西都代表了很多人当我们问他们问题时所说的这类事情，而且我已经提前帮你压缩过了。
好的，当我们问他们问题时，而且我已经把它压缩成了你得到的真实反馈。
所以当我们在 Twitch 准备上线时，我们和一堆现有的 Justin TV broadcasters 进行了交流，询问他们关于直播的经验，他们喜欢直播的什么，为什么要直播，直播什么，以及他们生活中还有什么其他事情。
有趣的是，当你和你产品的用户交谈时——这些用户都是对你产品的深度用户——他们会给你反馈一些实际上非常具体的关于功能的东西，因为他们实际上已经深陷在功能里了。
[段 38]
And you have to sort of read between the lines. But they asked for things like, I want to be able to clear the ban list in my chat room. That was actually a very common request, because there was a particular issue with how our chat room has worked. People would ask for the ability to edit the titles or highlights after creating them. And this stuff was really consistent. As you talk to broadcasters, you probably talk to 12, 14, something like that, broadcasters from the Justin.TV gaming platform, we got all this feedback and what else do we have? Your competitors have all these cool features like polls and scrolling tags. I can personalize chat there. We got some positive feedback.
[译文 38]
你需要从中解读出言外之意。但他们提出的要求是这样的：比如我想要能够清除我聊天室里的封禁名单。这实际上是一个非常普遍的请求，因为我们的聊天室在运作方式上存在一个特定的问题。人们会请求在创建标题或高亮之后编辑它们的功能。这些需求都非常一致。当你和主播们交流时，你可能会和12个、14个，或者类似数量的来自Justin.TV游戏平台的主播交流，我们获得了所有这些反馈，我们还有什么？你的竞争对手有所有这些很酷的功能，比如投票和滚动标签。我可以在那里个性化聊天。我们得到了一些正面反馈。
[段 39]
They’re like, oh, you guys don’t have ads. That’s great. I didn’t hear the band trolls. So a bunch of stuff about chat. A bunch of stuff around interactivity with interactivity with their viewers. And that was all really interesting. So this is what the Justin.TV broadcasters wanted us to build. And this is where they felt pain using the product. And so if you thought that what we did was go and address these problems, you would be wrong. Because actually, people who are using your service already and are willing to put up with all these issues, it kind of means that these are probably not actually the biggest problems. Because if you’re willing to ignore the fact that you can’t edit the ban list and titles are uneditable and there’s no way to get trolls out of your channel and you’re using the service anyways, maybe those aren’t huge problems.
[译文 39]
他们会说，哦，你们没有广告，这很棒。我没听到有人抱怨捣乱者。所以很多关于聊天的问题，很多关于与观众互动的问题。这些都很有趣。这就是Justin.TV广播商希望我们构建的功能。这就是他们使用产品时感到痛苦的地方。所以如果你认为我们所做的就是去解决这些问题，那你就错了。因为实际上，那些已经在使用你的服务并且愿意忍受所有这些问题的人，这可能意味着这些实际上可能不是最大的问题。因为如果你愿意忽略你不能编辑禁言列表、标题无法编辑、没有办法把捣乱者赶出你的频道这些事实，而你仍然在使用这个服务，也许这些并不是什么大问题。
[段 40]
And so that sort of brings up another really important point, which is you have to compare groups of people and compare the level at which they argue. So if you go to the next slide… Yes, nice. We got competitor broadcaster feedback, which is really interesting. So this is stuff that we heard a lot from people who are using other broadcast platforms. They wanted to be able to switch multiple people onto their channel at the same time. They complained about us not having a rev share program. They talked a lot about how they were trying to make a living. They really wanted to make money pursuing this gaming broadcasting thing. They talked a lot about video stability.
[译文 40]
所以这引出了另一个非常重要的观点，那就是你必须比较不同的人群，比较他们争论的程度。
如果你看下一页幻灯片…
是的，很好。
我们收到了竞争对手广播平台的反馈，这非常有趣。
这些是我们从使用其他广播平台的人那里经常听到的内容。
他们希望能同时让多人切换到他们的频道。
他们抱怨我们没有收入分成计划。
他们经常谈论他们如何努力维持生计。
他们真的希望通过游戏广播这件事赚钱。
他们经常谈论视频稳定性。
[段 41]
Our service wasn’t good in Europe, specifically. But just globally, video stability was this huge, huge issue for them. And if you compare and contrast, actually it was really different, the things that people who didn’t use our service said. It was really different. The things that people who didn’t use our service said about what they cared about was completely different than the things that people who were using the service cared about. And we focused on this stuff, because this was the stuff where it was so bad they weren’t even willing to use our service because of it. And most of them actually had thought about it, because our user base happened to be a very well-educated user base in the area who knew about all their options for this.
[译文 41]
我们的服务在欧洲尤其不好。但在全球范围内，视频稳定性对他们来说是个非常非常大的问题。如果你比较一下那些不使用我们服务的人说的话，实际上真的很不一样。那些不使用我们服务的人所说的他们关心的问题，与那些使用我们服务的人所关心的问题完全不同。我们专注于这些问题，因为问题严重到他们因此甚至不愿意使用我们的服务。而且他们中的大多数人实际上已经考虑过这个问题，因为我们的用户群恰好是该地区受教育程度非常高的用户群，他们了解这个领域所有的选择。
[段 42]
And they actually, reaching out to them, meant that they probably already tried all four services and actually had an opinion. It’s great when you can get users who are that informed and they understand the space that well. I’m just going to go to the next slide. Here we go. The other big thing we did that I thought was really important was we talked to non-broadcasters. So we went out there and we talked to all the people who weren’t using us or competitors. And in many ways, those are the most important people. Talking to your competitors, that’s a short-term win. If someone’s using a piece of competing software, unless your piece of competing software is something like Google, which is a search engine which everyone uses, maybe then there are no non-users to convert.
[译文 42]
实际上，联系他们意味着他们可能已经试用过全部四项服务，而且确实有了自己的看法。能够获得这样见多识广的用户，而且他们对这一领域有如此深刻的理解，这真是太棒了。我接下来进入下一张幻灯片。好。我们做的另一件重要的事是，我们与非广播用户进行了交流。所以我们走出去，接触了所有没有使用我们产品或竞争对手产品的人。在很多方面，这些人是最重要的。与竞争对手的用户交谈，那是短期的胜利。如果有人已经在使用一款竞品软件，除非你的竞品软件是像Google这样的东西——作为一个所有人都使用的搜索引擎——否则可能就没有非用户需要转化了。
[段 43]
But in the case of gaming broadcasting, almost everyone’s a non-user. This is true for most new products. The majority of people you’re competing with are non-users. They’re people who have never used your service before. And what they say is actually the most important. What they say is the thing that blocks you from expanding the size of the market. From expanding the size of the market with your features, all you do is look at your competitors and yourself, and all you do is talk to people who use your competitors’ products, people who use your products. You can never expand, well, never, but you’re not learning the things that help you expand the size of the market.
[译文 43]
但在游戏直播这个领域，几乎每个人都是非用户。大多数新产品都是如此。你与之竞争的大多数人都是非用户。他们是从来没有使用过你服务的人。而他们所说的实际上是最重要的。他们所说的正是阻止你扩大市场规模的东西。要用你的功能来扩大市场规模，你所做的就只是关注你的竞争对手和你自己，你所做的就只是与使用你竞争对手产品的人、使用你产品的人交谈。这样你永远无法扩展——好吧，永远无法，但你学不到那些帮助你扩大市场规模的东西。
[段 44]
You want to talk to people who aren’t even trying to use one of these things yet, who’ve thought about it maybe, but who aren’t into it. So what did they say? My computer isn’t fast enough. I’m focused on training 12 hours a day for the next tournament. I like making the perfect video and editing it, so I just upload things to YouTube, I don’t do live streaming. I have no desire to go into that space. Particularly in Korea, this is a big problem. Once our strategy gets broadcast in a major tournament, we have to start over. We have to come up with an entirely new strategy. And so the last thing we ever want to do would be broadcast our practice sessions.
[译文 44]
你希望与那些甚至还没有尝试使用这些东西的人交谈，他们可能考虑过，但并不热衷于此。那么他们说了什么呢？ “我的电脑不够快。我每天训练12小时准备下一场比赛。我喜欢制作完美的视频并剪辑，所以我只是上传到YouTube，不做直播。我不想进入那个领域。尤其是在韩国，这是一个大问题。一旦我们的策略在重大比赛中被广播，我们必须重新开始。我们必须想出一个全新的策略。所以我们最不想做的事情就是广播我们的训练课程。”
[段 45]
Are you crazy? That’s going to hurt us in the next big tournament. And so this became a big outreach program for us, trying to figure out how we can get people over this. We bought people computers. We worked really closely with gaming broadcast software companies to help the people who made the broadcasting software to make that better. We started building broadcasting into games and into platforms. We built broadcasting into the Xbox. We built broadcasting into the PlayStation 4. Because we needed to overcome this issue that it was too hard. Broadcasting wasn’t possible. And so you sort of combine these, for us, these are the three big groups we looked at for broadcasting. And you combine that feedback and what it tells you is not the features to build, right?
[译文 45]
你疯了吗？这会在下一场大型比赛中伤害我们。所以这成为了我们一个重大的推广项目，试图弄清楚如何帮助人们克服这个问题。我们给人买电脑。我们与游戏直播软件公司紧密合作，帮助制作直播软件的人改进产品。我们开始在游戏和平台中内置直播功能。我们在Xbox中内置了直播功能。我们在PlayStation 4中内置了直播功能。因为我们需要克服这个太难的问题。直播是不可能实现的。所以把这些结合起来，对我们来说，这些是我们研究直播时关注的三大群体。而你结合这些反馈，它告诉你的不是要构建哪些功能，对吧？
[段 46]
Because the features they asked for, things like polls, things like a, you know, the ability to have child account, like child accounts on your account, we haven’t built most of that stuff. But what was important were the issues, like the goals they were trying to accomplish there. People wanted money. People wanted stability and quality. People wanted universal access for viewers all around the world to be able to watch them. And so that became our focus actually. And we dumped almost all of our resources into things that no one ever mentioned in an interview. But those are the things that actually addressed the problem. And the way you could tell that it worked is as we would build these things, then we’d go back to the exact same people we interviewed and we’d say, hey, you told us you really cared a lot about making money.
[译文 46]
因为他们要求的功能，比如投票功能，比如你知道的那种能够让账户拥有子账户的功能，我们大部分都没有做。但重要的是那些问题，比如他们试图实现的目标。人们想要赚钱。人们想要稳定性和质量。人们希望全世界的观众都能观看到他们。所以这实际上成为了我们的重点。我们把几乎所有的资源都投入到了那些在采访中从未有人提及的事情上。但正是这些事情真正解决了问题。你能知道它有效的方法是，当我们构建了这些东西后，我们会回到我们采访过的那些人那里，说，嘿，你告诉我们你非常在乎赚钱。
[段 47]
Well, we built you the subscription program that will let you make money. And it’s astonishing because most people have never had that experience, actually. They never talked to someone and said it would be really great if your product had feature X. And then like two months later or a month later, your product actually has feature X. Or at the very least, a feature that addresses the problem that they brought up. And so it was actually the people we converted first to our product were the people that we talked to about user research. They were the ones who were actually the most impressed, which is kind of fun. But it really worked because we picked people who were representative, and we picked big broadcasters, small ones, medium ones, and we made sure we were addressing their concerns.
[译文 47]
我们为你打造了这个订阅项目，让你能够赚钱。这很令人惊讶，因为实际上大多数人都从未有过这样的体验。他们从未与某人交谈过说，如果你的产品有X功能就好了。然后大约两个月后或一个月后，你的产品真的有了X功能，或者至少有一个能解决他们提出的问题的功能。所以，实际上最先被我们转化为产品用户的人，正是我们进行用户研究时交谈过的人。他们实际上是最印象深刻的，这很有趣。但它真的很有效，因为我们挑选的人是有代表性的，而且我们挑选了大大小小的广播商，中等规模的也有，我们确保我们解决了他们的关切。
[段 48]
And that was completely different from how we’d approached the problem on Justin.TV. Because in Justin.TV, when we tried to do this, we sat down, we trawled through huge amounts of data. We spent tons of time looking at Google Analytics, looking at Mixpanel, looking at in-house analytics tools, figuring out how people use the service, looking at where our traffic came from, completion rates on flows. We spent all this time doing that, and that’s good. I mean, you can learn things from that. I’m not telling you not to look at your data, but it doesn’t tell you where you need to go. It doesn’t tell you what the problems are you need to address. And so we would just sort of invent these ideas in Justin.TV, and then nine times out of ten, without talking to someone, that idea turns out to be bad.
[译文 48]
这与我们在Justin.TV上处理这个问题的方式完全不同。因为在Justin.TV，当我们尝试这样做时，我们会坐下来，翻阅海量的数据。我们花大量时间查看Google Analytics、Mixpanel、内部分析工具，研究人们如何使用服务，查看流量来源，完成率等。我们花所有这些时间做这些，这是好的。我的意思是，你可以从中学习。我不是告诉你不要看你的数据，但它不会告诉你需要去哪里。它不会告诉你需要解决什么问题。所以在Justin.TV我们只是随意编造这些想法，然后十之八九，不与任何人交谈，那个想法最终被证明是糟糕的。
[段 49]
And that’s actually one of the most disappointing things about doing user interviews and user feedback, which is why I think so many people don’t do it, which is that you’re going to get negative news about your favorite pet feature most of the time. You’re going to have this great idea, and you’re going to talk to a user, and it’s going to turn out that nobody actually wants that. They’re actually completely concerned about completely different things, and they don’t care about what you thought was important at all. And that’s a little bit sad, but just think about how sad you’d be in four months when you launch that feature, and it turns out no one actually wants to use it.
[译文 49]
这确实是做用户访谈和用户反馈最令人失望的事情之一，这就是为什么我觉得很多人不这么做的原因——因为大多数时候你会听到关于你最爱的功能的负面消息。你会产生一个很棒的想法，然后去和用户交流，结果却发现根本没有人想要那个。他们实际上完全关心的是完全不同的东西，而且他们根本不在乎你认为重要的东西。这有点让人难过，但想想看，如果四个月后你推出那个功能，结果发现根本没有 人想用它，那你会多难过。
[段 50]
So I think that’s about it for the lecture section of what we’re talking about. I want to take some questions from the audience. What do you see startups get most wrong about? Most startups don’t do them at all, but the ones that do, what are the most common mistakes? The most common mistakes are showing people your product. Don’t show them your product. It’s sort of like telling them about a feature. You want to learn about what’s already in their heads. You want to avoid putting things there. The other thing is asking about your pet feature direction. So if you think you want to add subscriptions to your product, going and asking people, would you pay for a subscription, going and asking them, would you use this feature.
[译文 50]
所以我想关于讲座部分我们要讲的就是这些了。我想听听观众的问题。你觉得创业公司最常犯的错误是什么？大多数创业公司根本不这样做，但那些做了的，最常见的错误是什么？最常见的错误是向人们展示你的产品。不要向他们展示你的产品。这有点像告诉他们某个功能。你想了解他们脑子里已经有的东西。你想避免把东西放进他们脑子里。另一个错误是询问你偏爱的功能方向。所以如果你认为你想在产品中加入订阅，去问人们，你愿意付费订阅吗，去问他们，你会使用这个功能吗。
[段 51]
And I’d say the other big mistake people make is talking to who’s available rather than talking to who they need to talk to. There are certain users that are really easy to get at because they are, say, members of your forum already. You have some product forum, and you go and you talk to the users on that forum because they’re easy to get access to. We spent weeks digging for identity information and figuring out who these people were so we could contact them, so we could talk to them. Because a lot of these people weren’t, it wasn’t obvious. They were just some user on a site, and that site didn’t support messaging. There was no obvious way to interact with them.
[译文 51]
我会说的另一个大错误是，人们与容易接触到的人交谈，而不是与需要交谈的人交谈。有些用户很容易接触到，因为他们比如说已经是你们论坛的成员了。你们有一个产品论坛，你去和论坛上的用户交流，因为他们很容易接触到。我们花了数周时间挖掘身份信息，弄清楚这些人是谁，这样我们才能联系他们，与他们交谈。因为这些人中有很多并不是一眼就能看出来的。他们只是网站上的某个用户，而那个网站不支持私信。没有明显的途径可以与他们互动。
[段 52]
And so we spent a bunch of time trying to network and find those users and bring them on. Because if you just talk to who’s easy to talk to, you’re not really getting the best data. The fortunate side there is that almost everyone is flattered to be asked what they think. And so most of them will actually talk to you and tell you things. Yeah? How hard was it to get buy-in from the rest of your company? I mean, you can go and be like, whatever, I’m in charge, so you’re doing what I say. But that’s probably not the best way of doing it. So how did you get them to? That’s a good question.
[译文 52]
我们花了很多时间建立人脉、寻找那些用户并把他们拉进来。因为如果你只和容易沟通的人交谈，你就无法获得最好的数据。幸运的是，几乎每个人都会因为被询问意见而感到受宠若惊。所以他们中的大多数都会真的和你交谈并告诉你一些事情。对吧？从公司其他人那里获得认同有多难？我是说你可以直接说，随便吧，我是负责人，所以你得听我的。但这可能不是最好的方法。那你们是怎么让他们同意的？这个问题问得好。
[段 53]
So the question is, how hard is it to get buy-in from the rest of the company, and how do you do it? Getting buy-in if you just go to them and say, I talked to the users, I figured it out, we have to build this, is really hard because people don’t trust you. There’s something magic about showing them the interview, though, so I really recommend you record interviews. Recording interviews is like magic. A, it stops you from taking notes in the middle, and taking notes is a little bit disruptive. It makes it hard for you to feel like you’re actually engaged in the conversation. And B, you can then play that recording for people. So they don’t have to be there for the entirety of all the interviews, but when you want to make a point about what we should be building and why, you can just play back for the rest of the company that interview, and it’s like magic, the influence it has on people’s thoughts and what the right thing to build is.
[译文 53]
所以问题是，从公司其他人那里获得认同有多难，你该怎么做？如果你只是去找他们说，我和用户聊过了，我弄明白了，我们必须做这个，获得认同真的很难，因为人们不信任你。不过，向他们展示访谈内容有某种魔力，所以我真的建议你录制访谈。录制访谈就像有魔力一样。第一，它阻止你在中间做笔记，而做笔记有点干扰性。它让你很难感觉自己真正投入到对话中。第二，然后你可以为人们播放那段录音。所以他们不需要全程参与所有访谈，但当你想要说明我们应该做什么以及为什么时，你可以为公司其他人回放那段访谈，它就像有魔力一样，影响着人们的想法和什么才是应该构建的正确东西。
[段 54]
Yes? So did you, since you mentioned recording, did you try and respond to Skype interviews rather than over email? What was your impression? So you definitely want to do Skype or, sorry, the question was, do we insist on Skype interviews for recording? You don’t want to do interviews over email, if you can avoid it, because interviews over email are non-interactive. And the most interesting things you learn in interviews come from the interesting, tell me more. Because the instant that you hit, you’ll have this vein of, they’ll say something you didn’t expect. And the instant they say something you didn’t expect or didn’t already know, you should drop into detective mode. And detective mode is, huh, that’s interesting.
[译文 54]
是的？你也是，既然你提到了录音，你有没有尝试用Skype面试而不是电子邮件？有什么印象？所以你肯定想做Skype，或者，抱歉，问题是我们是否坚持用Skype面试来录音？如果可以避免，你不想用电子邮件进行面试，因为电子邮件面试是非互动的。你在面试中学到的最有趣的东西来自那些有趣的，追问更多的内容。因为一旦你触及到这一点，你就会发现他们会说一些你意想不到的话。当他们说了一些你意想不到或你不知道的事情时，你应该进入侦探模式。侦探模式就是，嗯，这很有趣。
[段 55]
Can you tell me more about that? People don’t like silence, so they’ll keep talking to fill the void. The best part about doing it over Skype or doing it in person is you have that interactive feedback, and you can actually pull a lot more out of people. Email interviews, they’re okay, but they’re basically useless. If you’re in person over Skype, they’re actually also easy to record. Make sure you ask them if it’s okay to record it. It’s not polite to record people without their consent, but if they’re willing to give you an user interview, they’re probably willing for you to record it as well. Sorry, but what about the international market? Like you mentioned that you’ve had a lot of users in Korea, and I don’t know, what about other markets?
[译文 55]
你能告诉我更多关于那件事吗？人们不喜欢沉默，所以他们会一直说话来填补空白。通过Skype或面对面做的最好的部分是，你有这种互动反馈，而且你实际上可以从人们那里获得更多东西。邮件采访，还可以，但基本上没用。如果你是通过Skype面对面，实际上也很容易录制。确保你问他们是否可以录制。未经同意就录制人是不礼貌的，但如果他们愿意给你做用户访谈，他们可能也愿意让你录制。抱歉，但国际市场怎么样？就像你提到的，你在韩国有很多用户，我不知道，其他市场呢？
[段 56]
I think the thing is, you need to adapt to wherever your users are. There’s definitely a language barrier. There’s definitely a cultural barrier. But if you’re making a product for a global audience, it’s worth figuring out how to do research in those markets. We didn’t do as good a job there as we could have. But I think the key is to think about who you’re making the product for. And if it’s for people in Korea, you probably need to learn Korean, or you need to find someone who can help you do that research. And that takes time, and it’s hard, but it’s worth it if that market is important to you. Maybe they feel comfortable speaking English?
[译文 56]
我觉得关键是，你需要适应你的用户所在的地方。确实存在语言障碍，确实存在文化障碍。但如果你在为全球用户做产品，值得研究如何在这些市场进行研究。我们在这方面做得不够好，本来可以做得更好。但我觉得关键是思考你为谁做这个产品。如果是为 Korea 的人，你可能需要学习 Korean，或者你需要找人来帮你做这项研究。这需要时间，也很难，但如果这个市场对你很重要，那是值得的。也许他们觉得说 English 很自在？
[段 57]
Yeah, so the question is, what about people in the international market where you’re trying to do user interviews with people who don’t speak your language? That’s just really hard, and actually to this day, Twitch works way better in English-speaking countries than it does in non-English-speaking countries. And I think a big part of that is, we are much better at talking to people in English-speaking countries and learning what their needs are, and we’re not as good at it in other countries. We’ve tried to address that by hiring people who speak Korean, having them translate. We’ve tried to address that by finding representative people in those countries who speak both English and Korean and reaching out to them.
[译文 57]
是的，所以问题是，在国际市场，当你尝试与不说你语言的人进行用户访谈时，会怎么样？这真的很难，而且实际上直到今天，Twitch 在英语国家的效果要比非英语国家好得多。我认为很大一部分原因是，我们更擅长与英语国家的人交流，了解他们的需求，而在其他国家我们做得没那么好。我们尝试通过雇用会说韩语的人，让他们翻译来解决这个问题。我们还尝试通过在这些国家找到既会说英语又会说韩语的代表性人物，然后联系他们来解决这个问题。
[段 58]
But the problem with that is you’re not actually getting a representative sample no matter how hard you try. The very fact that they are a fluent English speaker means they’re not representative of all the people who don’t speak fluent English. It’s just a hard problem. It’s why companies find it easier to build markets that win in their home country much more easily than abroad because it’s really hard to talk to users abroad. Yes? What channels did you use to reach out to them and did you ever compensate them? So what channels did we use to reach out to them and did we ever compensate them? The channels we used to reach out to them were on-site messaging systems.
[译文 58]
但这样做的问题在于，无论你多么努力，你实际上都无法获得一个具有代表性的样本。仅仅因为他们是英语流利者这一事实，就意味着他们无法代表所有英语不流利的人。这确实是个难题。这就是为什么公司发现，在本土市场建立市场并取得胜利比在国外容易得多，因为与国外用户沟通确实很困难。对吧？你们用什么渠道联系他们的？你们有给过他们报酬吗？所以我们用什么渠道联系他们的？我们有给过他们报酬吗？我们用来联系他们的渠道是现场消息系统。
[段 59]
So most websites have some way to contact a user, so if they’re a visible user of another website, you use that site’s messaging system and say, hey, I was watching your stream, or whatever this person was doing on the site. I’d love to ask you some questions about your use. Would you mind hopping on a Skype call? And as for the other thing, we’d do is we’d find out who people were, and we’d send them email. We’d run into them at events, because a lot of these people go to the same events, and we’d go to the events. We wouldn’t run the user interview at the event, but you get to know them. You exchange business cards, or whatever it is you actually do now that isn’t business cards, and you get in touch with them.
[译文 59]
所以大多数网站都有某种联系方式，如果你发现他们是另一个网站的用户，你就可以用那个网站的消息系统联系他们，比如，嘿，我一直在看你的直播，或者这个人在网站上做的其他事情。我很想问你一些问题，了解你使用产品的情况。你愿意上 Skype 通话吗？至于另一个方法，我们会先弄清楚这些人是谁，然后给他们发邮件。我们还会在各种活动上遇到他们，因为这些人往往会参加同一类活动，我们会去那些活动。虽然不会在活动上进行用户访谈，但你会逐渐认识他们。你们互相交换名片，或者现在流行的其他联系方式，然后保持联系。
[段 60]
We tended not to compensate people. I think that if people don’t care enough about the problem to talk to someone who’s trying to solve it, you’re probably barking up the wrong tree. We never had any trouble getting people to talk to us without paying them. What about on-site user feedback tools to get well-feedback from them? So there’s this whole second set of user feedback that’s really important that I should talk about. The question was what about on-site user feedback tools? And I think the stuff you’re talking about is where you have a new product and you want to see if it’s actually going to work or not. And so you put it in front of people and you see how they use it or not.
[译文 60]
我们倾向于不向用户付费。我的想法是，如果人们对这个问题不够关心，以至于不愿意与试图解决问题的人交谈，那你可能就走错方向了。我们从不花钱也能让人们愿意和我们交谈。那么关于现场用户反馈工具，从用户那里获得良好反馈的问题呢？所以还有另一整套用户反馈非常重要，我应该谈谈。问题是关于现场用户反馈工具的？我认为你所说的情境是，当你有一个新产品时，你想看看它是否真的能发挥作用。所以你把它放在用户面前，看看他们是否会使用它。
[段 61]
That’s really important. That kind of work is super, super important. It can tell you lots of things about where you went wrong building something before you launch it, which is great. It doesn’t tell you what to build. It helps you iron out the kinks and edges of the thing you did build, but generally speaking that wasn’t the kind of user feedback we were getting. That stuff’s good, it’s good. It’s much more similar though to the data-driven approach. You’re finding out why are people dropping off in this flow. You’re not finding out what problems should I really be solving for them and what do they care about as a human. And for this kind of really early-stage user interview, which is the kind of user interview that’s crucial startups do, that’s where you want to focus.
[译文 61]
这真的非常重要。那种工作超级、超级重要。它能告诉你很多关于你在产品发布前构建过程中哪里出了问题的东西，这很棒。它不会告诉你应该构建什么。它能帮助你消除你构建的东西中的缺陷和边角问题，但一般来说，那不是我们当时得到的用户反馈类型。那些东西很好，非常好。不过它与数据驱动的方法更为相似。你在发现为什么人们在这个流程中流失。你并没有发现我应该为他们解决什么问题，以及作为一个人类他们真正关心什么。对于这种非常早期的用户访谈——这是初创公司进行的关键的用户访谈类型——那才是你应该关注的地方。
[段 62]
So we didn’t bring anyone on site, actually. It was almost all over phone or Skype. Yes? So for the three different groups of people, there are different kinds of feedback. So as you start, you have a different time and resources. Is that a group that you’ll focus on first? Yeah. So with the three different kinds of people, did we focus on one of them, given that we had very limited resources? Yes. We focused on the competing, people using competing products, because we knew that they already were interested in the behavior that we needed, and they were willing to do it at all, and therefore all we had to do was convince them to switch, which is a much easier thing to do than to try to create a new behavior where none existed before.
[译文 62]
所以我们实际上没有带任何人到现场。几乎都是通过电话或Skype完成的。对吗？
所以对于三组不同的人，有不同类型的反馈。所以当你开始时，你拥有的时间和资源是不同的。这是你首先会关注的一组吗？
是的。
所以对于三种不同的人，考虑到我们资源非常有限，我们是否专注于其中之一？是的。我们专注于竞争对手，即使用竞争产品的人，因为我们知道他们已经对我们需要的行为感兴趣，而且他们完全愿意这样做，因此我们需要做的就是说服他们转换，这比试图在一个从未存在过新行为的地方创建新行为要容易得多。
[段 63]
And we had to do that because we had to get some quick wins because my gaming project inside of Justin.TV would have been killed if it wasn’t showing 25% month-over-month growth every single month. So we did, and that meant focusing on short-term, get the people in right now. And that turned out to be good in general because it turns out that building something that some people want generally generalizes. And so I want to bring in people who weren’t even users of the service as well. Yes? The switch has been around from the beginning to build up, for example, the video game industry. In the beginning, this industry was very decentralized. There wasn’t a lot of cohesion with different video game companies consolidating where tournaments are and stuff.
[译文 63]
我们必须这样做，因为我们必须快速取得成果，因为我内部的Justin.TV游戏项目如果不能每月都保持25%的环比增长，就会被砍掉。所以我们这样做了，这意味着要专注于短期，现在就把人拉进来。总的来说这其实是好事，因为事实证明，做一些有人需要的东西通常是会推广开来的。所以我也想吸引那些甚至不是这个服务用户的人。是的？这种转变从一开始就有了，比如在电子游戏行业。最初，这个行业非常分散。不同的电子游戏公司在赛事举办等方面缺乏整合协调。
[段 64]
But now it’s very different. So you said originally you spoke to broadcasters and streamers themselves. How has that changed when, for example, Riot has banned users, all professional players, from streaming their own stuff, users, professional players from streaming their own stuff? Have you tried to gain leverage with that? Yeah, so the question is, what about the game publishers, basically? The game publishers are these huge, important people in the space. A, the game publishers, and any big company for that matter, isn’t going to give you the time of day as a small startup, which is both good and bad. It means you don’t really need to talk to them because they’re not interested in you, but it means you actually just can’t talk to them.
[译文 64]
但现在情况大不相同了。你之前说最初你联系的是广播公司和流媒体本身。当例如 Riot 禁止用户、禁止所有职业选手流媒体自己的内容时，情况发生了什么变化？你有没有试图获得筹码？是的，问题在于游戏发行商，基本就是这样。游戏发行商是这个领域里非常庞大、重要的人物。A，游戏发行商，以及任何大公司都不会把你这个小创业公司放在眼里，这既是好事也是坏事。这意味着你其实不需要和他们交谈，因为他们对你不感兴趣，但也意味着你根本没法和他们交谈。
[段 65]
I mean, we tried, but no one wanted to talk to us. And they did once we started getting some traction and becoming a little bit, slightly bit of a player in the space. I don’t want to talk that bad about them because they were nice enough about it. It’s just that when you’re a tiny little startup, there’s lots of tiny little startups and they don’t have the time to talk to all of you. As we’ve gotten bigger, actually, the point that game publishers have become an increasingly important constituency for us, and if I was to talk about who Twitch does user interviews with now, who we pulled information from now, it would include game publishers, definitely.
[译文 65]
我是说，我们尝试过，但没人愿意跟我们聊。一旦我们开始有了一些发展势头，逐渐在这个领域有了一点存在感，情况就变了。我不想说得太负面，因为他们态度也挺好的。只是说当你是一家小小的初创公司时，市面上有太多这样的小公司了，他们没有时间跟每一家聊。随着我们规模越来越大，实际上游戏发行商已经成为我们越来越重要的用户群体了，如果我说Twitch现在跟谁做用户访谈、从哪里获取信息，那里面肯定包括游戏发行商。
[段 66]
Because they’ve become much more active in the space. It was something that they weren’t particularly active three or four years ago as much as they are now. And that’s another really important point about user interviews in general, which is that the pool of people you care about is going to shift over time. The people who get you started, like the crucial people to get your product started for the first six months, are not who will be using it three years later. And it’s very important you keep doing this stuff. Because one of the things that’s really easy to do is do a little bit of it in the beginning and achieve some level of success, and then you’re sort of stuck and achieve some level of success, and then just sort of stop talking to new people.
[译文 66]
因为他们在这个领域变得更加活跃了。这是他们三四年前不像现在这样特别活跃的时期。这是关于用户访谈的另一个非常重要的观点，即你所关注的人群会随着时间推移而变化。那些帮助你起步的人，比如在最初六个月对你的产品至关重要的那些人，不会是三年后使用它的人。持续做这些事情是非常重要的。因为非常容易犯的错误之一就是一开始做一点，然后取得一定程度的成功，然后就有点停滞不前了，取得一定程度的成功后，就停止与新的人交流。
[段 67]
And that’s a good way to make the next set of features you build be not as good as the first ones. How about one more question? Yeah. Yes. How do you give good user feedback if you’re a user? So how do you give good user feedback? It’s a really good question. So I think what I want a user to do is I want a user to tell me about what they’re really thinking and what their problems really are, and to just sort of ramble. I want someone to just tell me about stuff in their life. Because the more you learn about them as a person and what’s going on in the context of what they’re doing, the easier it is to understand why.
[译文 67]
这是让你的下一套功能不如第一批功能的好方法。再来一个问题怎么样？好的。好的。如果你是一个用户，你会如何给出好的用户反馈？所以如何给出好的用户反馈？这真是个好问题。我认为我想要用户做的是，我想要用户告诉我他们真正在想什么，他们的真正问题是什么，就随便聊聊。我希望有人能告诉我他们生活中的事情。因为你对他们这个人了解得越多，以及他们在做什么事情时所处的背景了解得越多，就越容易理解为什么（会出现问题）。
[段 68]
They want the things they want. And that’s really the critical question. So I’d say what I’m looking for when I’m doing a user interview is someone who’s going to be willing to talk a lot and be willing to really give me a full picture. So that’s what I guess. On the flip side, if you want to help people out with good user interview feedback, ramble, just talk about stuff and everything. Alright, great. Well, thank you very much, thank you very much.
[译文 68]
他们想要他们想要的东西。这确实是个关键问题。所以我可以说，当我在做用户访谈时，我找的是愿意多说、愿意真正给我完整画面的人。我想说的就是这些。另一方面，如果你想通过好的用户访谈反馈帮助别人，就随意说，谈论各种事情。好的，很好。嗯，非常感谢，非常感谢。
Source: bilibili BV1oWKpzoE1Z